Announcer: This is THE CHRIS MATTHEWS SHOW. Today...
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
Catch me if you can. Barack Obama looks headed for a delegate lead by the end of all the primaries. But would the nonelected superdelegates deny him the nomination? Could Hillary Clinton manage that?
Recount revisited. What's to be done about Florida and Michigan? Party rules say they shouldn't count. Can Democrats reward their defiance or pretend there are only 48 states?
And finally, speed dating. Hillary goes on morning TV and teases a possible
partnership with Barack. But is what's good for the goose good for the
gander? If he ends up the nominee, would he accept her?
Interview: Gloria Borger of CNN, Ron Allen of NBC News, Andrea
Mitchell of NBC News and Patrick Healy of The New York Times on
whether superdelegates will spoil Obama's lead, what to do about
Florida and Michigan's votes and the possibility of a
Clinton-Obama or Obama-Clinton ticket; Tell Me Something I Don't
Know; Big Question
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
Gloria Borger's senior political analyst for CNN and a columnist for U.S.
News & World Report. Ron Allen is a correspondent for NBC News who's been out
there covering all sides of this campaign. Andrea Mitchell's also been out
there covering this campaign for NBC News. And Patrick Healy has been
following the Obama-Clinton battle for The New York Times.
First up, who said the Democratic race wouldn't last this long? Barack
Obama's been amassing more delegates than Hillary and keeps raking in more
cash. He holds a delegate lead, which experts say will hold up even when all
the primaries are over, including any new vote in Michigan and Florida. But
with her big wins this week, Hillary Clinton's hinting at the prospect that
most unelected superdelegates will rally behind her, even if she trails in
elected delegates.
Senator HILLARY CLINTON: (From "Today," Wednesday) That this campaign is
evolving, new questions are being raised. New challenges are being put to my
opponent. Superdelegates are supposed to take all that information onboard.
MATTHEWS: But Barack is publicly confident the superdelegates wouldn't dare
defy the Democratic voters, that they'll back him in the end.
Senator BARACK OBAMA: (Wednesday) I think for most superdelegates, pretty
decisive if a candidate comes with not just--not just more states, more
primaries, more caucuses, more pledged delegates but also the popular vote.
MATTHEWS: So how could the superdelegates be persuaded in the Democratic
Party to overrule the democratically elected delegates? There are at least
three possible ways, we hear, the Clintons might try to win this case. One,
the argument that she, Senator Clinton, won the big states and has the late
momentum, if she does. Two, making promises to superdelegates for possible
favors later. That's been heard of in politics. And three, some kind of
Obama bad news; some kind of bombshell. Andrea, it's been suggested by
somebody sitting to my immediate left that this is a battle between the House
of Commons, the elected delegates, and the House of Lords, those who stand
above and judge the little people. Can the Clintons join the House of Lords
and say `we're going to overrule the elected delegates'? Can they do it?
Ms. ANDREA MITCHELL (NBC Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent): I think they
can't get away with it. But here is their argument. She's won the big
states. She's won California, Ohio, Texas. They'll claim Michigan. They
hope for Pennsylvania.
MATTHEWS: OK.
Ms. MITCHELL: So they say, `We've won the big states. He's not ready for
prime time. Look at the problems he's had with his staff, these latest
resignations.'
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. MITCHELL: You've got to go with us because...
MATTHEWS: OK.
Ms. MITCHELL: ...we are electable.
MATTHEWS: OK, Patrick, how can you argue, even if Hillary does win the big
states and goes on to win Pennsylvania, how can you say that those states are
more valuable than all the delegates elected elsewhere?
Mr. PATRICK HEALY (The New York Times): You know, you can say that, from the
Clinton campaign, they see this as an argument that's sort of as buyer's
remorse, that something is going to set in among voters, among the big states,
you know, with Barack Obama, that that's going to become sort of, you know,
like a major point of concern, and that the superdelegates, you know, and
folks in the bigger states are going to be able to weigh in at some point and
say, you know, `Wait a minute; this isn't working out. This isn't the guy who
we thought he was going to be.' Ultimately...
MATTHEWS: But why the big state theory? Help me out, guys, here.
Ms. GLORIA BORGER (CNN Senior Political Analyst): Well, it's about
electability. There--it can--look at it like a legal brief, OK? The Clinton
campaign and the Obama campaign are making their legal briefs...
MATTHEWS: Mm.
Ms. BORGER: ...going to the House of Lords and saying, `oh, ye lords, this
is why we are the best candidate to win in the fall election.'
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Ms. BORGER: So your legal brief will say, `Well, I won the big states,'
which is why Pennsylvania's going to be so important. `I--and that's part of
my legal brief. Because I am electable. And by the way, oh, ye House of
Lords, you want to win more than anything else.'
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. RON ALLEN (NBC Political Correspondent): But the other problem, too, is
that, overall, Obama still has the lead in popular votes overall.
MATTHEWS: Their case is that if they do get another vote--if they get another
vote based on the earlier vote in Michigan and Florida, they will catch up in
popular vote.
Mr. ALLEN: Well, that's presuming that, as we go through the remaining
primaries, that they do well. I mean, we still have other states to vote. At
the end of the day, I think the Clintons are making an argument that they have
to make because they need overtime.
MATTHEWS: OK.
Mr. ALLEN: They need for this thing to go on.
MATTHEWS: Let's go back to this momentum. You raised momentum, it's the big
if. The pattern has been that he wins most of the states. Most of the states
that are left, he could win again. Why do we presume otherwise?
Ms. MITCHELL: Well, clearly he's got advantages going into Mississippi.
He's got an advantage in North Carolina. We should not overlook North
Carolina, the same time as Pennsylvania, an important state. He'll be
competitive in Indiana, although it's blue collar and has some of the same
demographics as Ohio, which was good for her. But one of the things about
Pennsylvania is he's got a lot of time. He's got six weeks, more than six
weeks between now and April 22. When he puts himself in a state with his
organization skill and money...
MATTHEWS: Barack Obama?
Ms. MITCHELL: Barack Obama--and money to burn...
Mr. HEALY: This is why the Clintons...
Ms. MITCHELL: ...he can try to overwhelm her in Pennsylvania. I think it's
a hard sell for him because it's such an old state...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. MITCHELL: ...the health care issue, all the other things that you know
about.
Mr. HEALY: Clintons love...
MATTHEWS: Patrick, what do you mean? Follow that up.
Mr. HEALY: No, Clintons love the idea, too, of having more time because
they're trying to draw Barack Obama onto their turf, onto their rules, make
him get nasty, make him lose his temper.
MATTHEWS: How do you know that?
Mr. HEALY: This is...
MATTHEWS: This is a big issue this week. How do you know that they want him
to play rough?
Mr. HEALY: They've been trying to get it all year. They've been trying to
tempt him, draw him out, bait him, goad him. I mean, in those moments, in
some of the moments in the debates when she's so...
Mr. ALLEN: They've been--they've been...
Ms. BORGER: It's so school yard.
Mr. HEALY: ...you know, been so sweet.
Mr. ALLEN: They've been very successful.
Mr. HEALY: She's trying to get him up because they know that at the end of
the day, from between the media elite, between voters in different states,
even the superdelegates, if they see the shine coming off of what was so
special about this guy, they'll say, `Well, why don't we elect--you know, why
don't we go with...'
MATTHEWS: Yeah. I think they may get what they're asking for.
Ms. BORGER: It's the...
Mr. ALLEN: They've been successful with this, too, and that's one of the
lessons they're going to take from Ohio is that the negativity, the picking at
all these other things that--about him, works. They have--they have money as
well, with time. And I think you're going to see a much more nimble, or
you're going to have to see a much more nimble Barack Obama.
MATTHEWS: Right. Elegance.
Mr. ALLEN: Someone who's able to fight the fight and also...
MATTHEWS: OK.
Ms. BORGER: Well, he's...
Mr. ALLEN: ...maintain the high, you know, the high road, if you will.
Mr. HEALY: And Barack...
Ms. BORGER: Well, he's got to do it--nuance is really hard in politics,
particularly in this kind of a game. But he's got to be a little nuanced
about it because you can't be the man from hope who talks about hope, who's
running a different kind of campaign and get really negative and nasty
yourself.
MATTHEWS: You know what?
Ms. BORGER: Look, he's got to have his surrogates do it. What, what?
MATTHEWS: OK. He's got to have his surrogates do it, right.
Ms. BORGER: He's got to have his surrogates do it.
MATTHEWS: But you know what? People root for the person who attacks from a
defensive position. Ronald Reagan taught us that. `There you go again, Mr.
President.' People root for the guy or the person...
Mr. ALLEN: Right.
MATTHEWS: ...who comes back from an attack.
Ms. MITCHELL: Excuse me, Chris. but that's one thing she did very
successfully in the Ohio-Texas match-up. She portrayed herself first of all
as a fighter. `I'll fight for you--you're worried about jobs, you're worried
about the economy--but also, I'm a victim.'
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Ms. MITCHELL: You know, `look at the "Saturday Night Live" routine, the
media has been unkind to me. I'm warm, I'm human, I'm funny.'
MATTHEWS: Let me--get back to the real, Andrea, here. Let's talk turkey.
Let's talk patronage. Let's talk jobs. Let's talk what a Bill Clinton can
very subtly provide in a back room.
Ms. BORGER: I know.
MATTHEWS: Bill Clinton sits down with the Philadelphia city committee, with
the ward leaders. Can he sit down with guys, superdelegates, men and women,
and say, `Look...'
Ms. BORGER: No.
MATTHEWS: ...and talk turkey.
Ms. MITCHELL: You know who can?
MATTHEWS: In other words, jobs, favors later coming.
Ms. MITCHELL: You know who can? Two people in Pennsylvania. Eddie Rendell,
the governor, Mike Nutter, the mayor.
MATTHEWS: On behalf of the president?
Ms. MITCHELL: Absolutely. On behalf of Hillary Clinton.
MATTHEWS: On behalf of Hillary Clinton?
Ms. MITCHELL: They've endorsed her.
MATTHEWS: Can they go out and cherry pick 200 delegates by just offering
things to people? I'm just asking.
Mr. HEALY: I think that...
Ms. MITCHELL: They can...(unintelligible).
Mr. HEALY: No, I think that's really tough because, I mean, this could blow
up in their face...
Ms. BORGER: Right.
Mr. HEALY: ...in a way that would be exponentially worse than what
happened...
MATTHEWS: How would it? What would be the...
Mr. HEALY: ...with Bill Clinton down in South Carolina
Mr. BORGER: We'd find out about it.
Mr. HEALY: If something comes out of Bill Clinton trying to horse trade on
the telephone...
Ms. MITCHELL: No.
Mr. HEALY: ...you know, with elected, you know, party officials who are
superdelegates...
Mr. ALLEN: Well, it all--all these officials...
Ms. MITCHELL: This plays into...
Mr. HEALY: ...can easily blow up in their face. They need the Eddie
Rendell...
Ms. BORGER: They're playing into the...
Ms. MITCHELL: Well. Time out.
Mr. HEALY: They need the surrogates to be doing stuff.
Ms. BORGER: ...same old politics.
Mr. ALLEN: There's still accountability, too.
Ms. BORGER: Barack Obama says this is the same old politics.
Mr. HEALY: Right. Right.
Ms. BORGER: Bill Clinton trying to horse trade. We in the media get wind of
that, that...
MATTHEWS: But why would somebody admit that Bill Clinton offered them
something?
Ms. MITCHELL: Someone did.
Mr. HEALY: Well, they're going to be......(unintelligible)...already.
Ms. MITCHELL: Someone did to me only this week. Marcie Kaptur,
congresswoman from Ohio, and all the rest of the Ohio delegation, all
superdelegates except for the ones congresswoman--you know, who had endorsed
Hillary Clinton. They have asked for concessions from both Barack Obama and
Hillary Clinton on NAFTA.
MATTHEWS: Mm.
Ms. MITCHELL: They want tougher action on trade and that's what they want in
trade for their vote. They want policy.
Mr. ALLEN: But all these people...
MATTHEWS: OK.
Ms. BORGER: But that's not personal. That's not personal.
Mr. ALLEN: But all these people--all these people are still accountable to
their constituents.
Ms. MITCHELL: But it's still a trade.
Mr. ALLEN: You know, it's not like the fact that they're elected officials
goes away.
MATTHEWS: Let me ask a big question. This weekend we had that flap-up about
Samantha Powers, the foreign policy adviser to Senator Obama who called
Hillary Clinton a monster and she had to quit and all there was--she had to
quit. But is there something--isn't there the other possibility that Hillary
Clinton, Senator Clinton, staying in this race and staying hot in the fight,
out of the prospect that might break bad, something Barack Obama might say
that's terrible, some old relationship, something he said once. Patrick, is
that part of their thinking?
Ms. BORGER: Yeah.
Mr. HEALY: Oh, absolutely. I mean, that goes to the time argument, too. I
mean, not only some sort of stumble or some sort of gaffe, but that something
will happen, you know, with Rezko, with some other old relationships, this
hope that the media will start...
MATTHEWS: Or he said something about the Middle East 10 years ago...
MATTHEWS: ...and it'll come out on a tape recording or something.
Mr. HEALY: That's huge. That's huge.
Mr. ALLEN: But, you know, do the Clintons really want to--does Senator
Clinton and her team really want to go that far on all that stuff?
Ms. MITCHELL: Sure.
Ms. BORGER: Yeah.
Mr. ALLEN: Because Lord knows she has quite a record herself.
Ms. MITCHELL: This is...(unintelligible)...
MATTHEWS: Are you--are you being rhetorical here?
Mr. ALLEN: No, I don't--I don't--I don't think--I don't think that--I
just...
MATTHEWS: Yeah, right. We're not--we haven't gone back to Whitewater...
Mr. ALLEN: Right.
MATTHEWS: We haven't gone back to the billing records...
Ms. MITCHELL: But...
MATTHEWS: ...hundreds of thousands of dollars in cattle futures.
Mr. ALLEN: Tax returns, all that other stuff.
Ms. MITCHELL: But they're going to win--they're going to end up behind in
delegates and possibly behind in popular votes. If they're going to win this,
they have to do it in overtime.
Ms. BORGER: And don't you think they're doing the research on these things
right now? And then maybe there are some things they've got in their back
pocket...
MATTHEWS: OK.
Ms. BORGER: ...that we don't know about.
MATTHEWS: Time for my favorite part of the show, the bottom line. We put it
to The Matthews Meter, 12 of our regulars: If Barack Obama gets to the end of
all the primaries with about the same lead he has now in elected delegates,
would superdelegates nominate Hillary Clinton anyway? Ten say no--that's 10
of our 12 say no way, that's not going to happen, if Obama ends the primaries
with a 100 or so delegate lead like he's been having all these months, the
superdelegates will not nominate the other candidate. Two say they might.
Andrea and Gloria, you say they'll go with the vote of the Democratic Party.
Ms. BORGER: Yes. I think they will. I think--superdelegates are not
kamikaze pilots. They're politicians. And in the end, they're going to do
what's good for them and they're going...
MATTHEWS: So they're politicians.
Ms. BORGER: They're politicians.
MATTHEWS: I just love that.
Ms. BORGER: They're going to do this out of self-interest, Chris.
Ms. MITCHELL: And in the case of Barack Obama, his strength has been that he
is a movement, that he's brought new people into the party. This is a
generational shift in the Democratic Party. And they would be so afraid of a
complete rebellion...
Ms. BORGER: Mm-hmm.
Ms. MITCHELL: ...and of people staying home and of a loss to the Republicans
if they were...
MATTHEWS: And who said politics can't get to your gut?
Ms. MITCHELL: ...invalidated finally.
MATTHEWS: This is gut-wrenching, this thing. This is--it's impossible not to
get up in the morning and try to figure out what's going to happen today.
Before we break, it seems that once a month, Barack Obama is predicted to
finally close the deal, but then someone keeps hitting that reset button.
Back in January, Obama won a huge victory in Iowa and reporters covering
Clinton in New Hampshire were hearing things were desperate.
Unidentified Reporter: (From "Good Morning America," January 2) Within her
camp, I can tell you there is some tension, with one day left to go, Diane, to
right the ship.
MATTHEWS: But she won New Hampshire. Then a month later on Super Tuesday,
the story was that she need a knockout punch just to survive.
Mr. HOWARD FINEMAN: ("Hardball," February 5) Her worst fear is that there's
a tidal wave out there and it's going to crest, and that even though
everybody's been lowering expectations like crazy today that Obama will do
much better than expected.
MATTHEWS: But Super Tuesday ended as a draw and the battle started anew.
Then this week, Ohio and Texas. It was to be Hillary's last stand.
BRIAN WILLIAMS reporting:
(From "NBC Nightly News," Monday) Tonight, she is under new pressure to drop
out of the race if she does not win the two big contests in tomorrow's
primaries and caucuses in Texas and Ohio.
MATTHEWS: But she won Ohio and Texas, and now the battle will last for at
least seven more weeks as it heads into Pennsylvania. That state is, of
course, home of Punxsutawney Phil. And all this reminds me of that movie
"Groundhog Day," in which Bill Murray's a TV reporter who's been sent to
Punxsutawney and is stuck reliving the same day over and over again.
Mr. BILL MURRAY: (In character, from "Groundhog Day") Once again the eyes of
the nation have turned here to this tiny village in western Pennsylvania, blah
blah blah blah blah. There's no way that this winter is ever going to end.
MATTHEWS: And when we come back, Hillary says she could partner up with
Barack Obama, but is that for real? Would Barack Obama pick her as his VP?
Plus scoops and predictions right out of the notebooks of these reporters.
TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW. We'll be right back.
(Announcements)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back.
When all is said and done, could Clinton and Obama end up joining forces as
running mates? Hillary seems to think so. Listen.
Sen. CLINTON: (From "The Early Show," Wednesday) That may, you know, be
where this is headed. But of course we have to decide who's on the top of the
ticket. And I think that the people of Ohio very clearly said that it should
be me.
MATTHEWS: Would running together be a good idea? We asked The Matthews
Meter, 12 of our regular panelists, for the strongest ticket possible, should
Democrats run Clinton and Obama together? Maybe not. Seven to five, the
meter says the party nominee would be better off finding another running mate.
So then we asked the meter is Obama more electable with Hillary as his running
mate? Eight to four, the meter says no, he's not more electable without her.
And here comes the wrinkle. Then we asked the meter, is Hillary more
electable with Barack as her running mate? It's almost unanimous. That's why
you got to keep asking. Eleven to one, the meter says bull's-eye. That makes
sense.
The problem is, Gloria, he's leading. That's the problem.
Ms. BORGER: He's leading. She needs him.
MATTHEWS: And he's not going to take number two.
Ms. BORGER: She needs him. In this interview you were--I mean, she's
proposing marriage to Barack Obama. Every...
MATTHEWS: What do you think--what's the flirtation about? Is it to do, what?
Ms. BORGER: It's a flirtation--the flirtation is to tell African-Americans,
`look, I know you were mad at me, but guess what? Even--you get Barack Obama
either way. And if I'm running, you're going to have him on the ticket
because I really love him. I'm really for him.' And she's trying to say, `I
will be the uniter of the party.' Now Barack Obama, by the way, has not been
so willing to talk about this...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. BORGER: ...because it is much--it is not in his interest to talk about
running with Hillary Clinton.
MATTHEWS: He doesn't want to say you get two for the price of one.
Ms. BORGER: No, absolutely not.
MATTHEWS: This two for the price of one thing helps...
Mr. ALLEN: I think it's all just part of the Clinton head game, basically.
`Just because I'm the better commander in chief, I can pick a vice president.'
And it's all about creating this illusion that she is going to be the nominee.
But...(unintelligible).
MATTHEWS: By saying that, I'm--you're suggesting you are going to be the
boss.
Mr. ALLEN: At the end of the day, just lastly, I think that putting the two
of them together is, it's a lot of history to jump over. Let's not forget
that.
MATTHEWS: Yeah. Patrick, you were--you were thinking...
Mr. HEALY: Yeah.
MATTHEWS: You watch her all the time, her campaign. What's this about?
Mr. HEALY: Yeah, yeah. I still--there's still not a lot of love going on
there between Hillary and Barack so...
Ms. BORGER: Oh...
MATTHEWS: But is there--but what's the politics?
Mr. HEALY: No, but it's probably what Gloria was saying about unity. I
mean, the--she does not have a unity message. He does.
Ms. BORGER: Mm-hmm.
Mr. HEALY: This is his one--this is her one way to sort of get at that. You
know, it also--it allows her to sort of project, or, to frankly, to say one
nice thing about the guy while her campaign is going...(mimes poking).
MATTHEWS: While they're sticking it.
Ms. MITCHELL: But I really do think it's to say, `look, you can still have
him and he's young and he'll have another turn.'
Ms. BORGER: Yeah.
Ms. MITCHELL: `If you vote for me, you've got reliability and you still get
Barack Obama.' He doesn't want any part of that.
MATTHEWS: Would he ever--he's the front runner. Would he ever pick her?
Ms. BORGER: No! No!
Ms. MITCHELL: No way.
Mr. HEALY: No way.
Mr. ALLEN: No. No.
MATTHEWS: Ha! Why way?
Mr. HEALY: Bill and Hill?
Ms. MITCHELL: Would you want Billary, Bill Clinton in your White House as
the vice president's spouse...
MATTHEWS: I was just driving by the vice president's house the other day...
Ms. MITCHELL: If you're a young...
Mr. ALLEN: If you've been running against everything...
MATTHEWS: ...on Masters Avenue. He may want to live over there.
Mr. ALLEN: He's been running against everything she stands for.
Mr. HEALY: The mind games...
Ms. BORGER: But you know what...
Mr. ALLEN: He's saying it's...
Mr. HEALY: Exactly.
Mr. ALLEN: ...we need to move forward, not backwards.
Ms. BORGER: But let me just say something. If this for the price of him
getting the nomination, let's just be, you know...
MATTHEWS: Political.
Ms. BORGER: ...practical here and political, then would Barack Obama pick
Hillary Clinton if he had to?
MATTHEWS: You know, let's be blunt here.
Mr. HEALY: The one person to talk Barack out of that will be Al Gore.
MATTHEWS: Let me tell you something. His foreign policy is very attractive
to Democrats; her domestic policy is very attractive.
Ms. BORGER: Yeah.
MATTHEWS: It makes a lot of sense. Al Gore would have taught us what lesson
here?
Ms. MITCHELL: I covered...
Mr. HEALY: To watch your back?
Ms. MITCHELL: I covered--listen, when I covered the Clintons in office in
1993, first few months, the biggest story going was Hillary Clinton vs. Al
Gore for the role of vice president. They hated each other.
MATTHEWS: OK. I'll be right back with scoops and predictions right out of
the notebooks of these top reporters. TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW. Be
right back.
(Announcements)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back.
Gloria, TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW.
Ms. BORGER: The newly empowered man in the Democratic Party? Howard Dean.
MATTHEWS: Wow.
Ms. BORGER: Not just because of Michigan and Florida, but if this thing goes
all the way to the convention, it's going to be up to the Steering Committee
to figure out what's going to happen. They'll be proportional, but guess who
gets to appoint 25 members to those steering committees? Howard Dean.
MATTHEWS: Credentials.
Ms. BORGER: Yes.
MATTHEWS: He's in charge. He...
Ms. BORGER: And rules. Credentials and rules.
MATTHEWS: By the way, that man needs a giant gavel.
Ms. BORGER: Yeah.
MATTHEWS: A really big one.
Ms. BORGER: Yeah.
MATTHEWS: Ron?
Mr. ALLEN: I've been hearing from a lot of people in the real world who keep
raising this issue of fairness, and I think that there is a simmering
resentment out there in the grass roots amongst real people who aren't privy
to all the subtleties and nuances of the rules and all that, who the Democrats
really risk alienating in a really profound--not just alienating but angering
if, in fact, that the endgame isn't played in a very transparent way, that
both camps--and yes, a lot of these people are Obama people.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. ALLEN: But I think if it's not transparent, if it doesn't have the
feeling of fairness, it's going to be a big problem.
MATTHEWS: Are you saying that the Democratic Party should be Democratic? Let
me go to Andrea. I did not think we were going that--I didn't think they were
going that far.
MITCHELL: Michigan Democrats have already gone to both the Obama and the
Clinton campaigns and asked them to raise the money from their fat cats to pay
for this hybrid of caucus-primary in May or June to come up with the money,
which would clear the decks because the governor of Michigan has said, `We're
not spending tax dollars money.'
MATTHEWS: Patrick?
Mr. HEALY: Hillary Clinton's big money men in New York are hoping for a
March surprise, the possibility that she could either match or outraise Barack
Obama in March if he--if she can keep this pace of a million or more a day.
Some of the DC people say that the New York people are crazy, but there's some
talk about it.
MATTHEWS: I'll be right back with this week's BIG QUESTION: Is there any
Democrat, including Al Gore, big enough to get Hillary or Barack to give up
before the convention?
(Announcements)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back.
This week's BIG QUESTION: Is there any senior Democrat big enough to broker a
deal, get one side to fold between now and the convention? Gloria?
Ms. BORGER: The only person you can possibly think of is Al Gore, but...
Mr. ALLEN: I don't think...
Ms. BORGER: ...the Clintons are self--don't trust him.
MATTHEWS: Ron?
Mr. ALLEN: I don't think--I think the process has to work itself out
naturally.
MATTHEWS: So nobody can be talked out of this thing?
Mr. ALLEN: I--it's all about votes and math. I mean, that's what we've been
doing for the last little while.
MATTHEWS: Will anybody--if it comes down to a choice between popular vote vs.
delegate vote and somebody has to step in and say, `It's over' to one of these
candidates...
Ms. MITCHELL: Gore has moral authority. The Clintons don't like him, but he
has the moral authority with the popular--with the--with people. But Nancy
Pelosi could also be a factor.
Mr. HEALY: It's Gore, but it's not a brokering. It would just be an
endorsement, an enthusiastic endorsement of Obama.
MATTHEWS: He says it's over? He won.
Mr. HEALY: That would, in effect, you know, put him on the table.
MATTHEWS: That's a nice way of putting it.
Thanks to a great roundtable. Gloria Borger, Ron Allen, Andrea Mitchell and
Patrick Healy.
