Announcer: This is THE CHRIS MATTHEWS SHOW. Today...
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
Can we get together? Will 2008 be the year America gets past race? Is it
possible? Or will the stresses of the Obama-Clinton rivalry reignite the old
divisions?
Crack-up. Are the Obama and Clinton camps so dug in that they're ruining
their chance to beat John McCain? Can either Obama or Hillary inspire the
other one's partisans to show up in November?
And finally, sex and politics. It's still the same old story, the fight for
love and glory, on that we can rely. JFK, Gary Hart, Bill Clinton, now Eliot
Spitzer. Why do some politicians risk it all?
Hi, I'm Chris Matthews. Welcome to the show.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Interview: Michelle Cottle of the New Republic, Eugene Robinson
of The Washington Post, Andrea Mitchell of NBC News and Richard
Stengel of Time magazine on whether America can get past race,
if the Obama/Clinton fight is causing a divide in the Democratic
Party that will ruin their chances in the general election, and
why politicians risk it all for sex; Tell Me Something I Don't
Know; The Big Question
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
Michelle Cottle is senior editor of the New Republic. Eugene Robinson is a
Washington Post columnist. Andrea Mitchell covers the campaigns for NBC News, and Richard Stengel is the editor of Time magazine.
First up, this was the week when race, that divisive force that has riven the
American scene for three centuries, rose up to dominate the Clinton-Obama
battle. The issue had simmered ever since New Hampshire with subtle and
not-so-subtle references to Barack Obama's race from members of Hillary's
campaign. This week, Geraldine Ferraro had this to say.
(Begin clips from "Good Morning America," Wednesday)
Ms. DIANE SAWYER: This is how you are quoted in the newspaper. "If Obama
was a white man he would not be in this position. And..."
Ms. GERALDINE FERRARO: And I believe that.
Ms. SAWYER: "And If he ways woman of any color, he would not be in this
position."
Ms. FERRARO: And I believe that.
Ms. SAWYER: "He happens to be very lucky to be who he is, and the country is
caught up in the concept."
Ms. FERRARO: Absolutely.
I was asked after the speech, `Could you--what do you--what is the reason that
you see that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are at this level together?'
Could I have said, `Because his experience is what puts him there'? No.
Could I say, `Because his stand on issues have distinguished him'? No.
Ms. SAWYER: Sorry you said this?
Ms. FERRARO: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
(End of clips)
MATTHEWS: Senator Obama took issue this way.
Senator BARACK OBAMA: (Wednesday) You know, I think that there has been a
running thread throughout this campaign. Pundits and prognosticators asking,
first, was I black enough, then am I too black? I don't know what exactly the
margin of black vote is that is the optimal, not too black, but black enough.
MATTHEWS: And then late in the week, this tape of Obama's Chicago pastor
preaching last December, and how it became part of this debate.
Reverend JEREMIAH WRIGHT: (December 25, 2007) Barack knows what it means to
be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich
white people! Hillary can never know that. Hillary ain't never been called
a...(word censored by station).
MATTHEWS: Wow. Well, we--Gene, you and I have talked for months about this
campaign. Watching it go along well without the ethnic factor being raised.
This was a bad week for that goal.
Mr. EUGENE ROBINSON (Columnist, The Washington Post): It was. You know,
race came kind of roaring into the race. It was probably inevitable. You
know, race has been a constant theme of American society since the first
importation of slaves in 1619. That's almost 400 years, and we haven't gotten
rid of it yet.
MATTHEWS: That's a pretty bad run.
Mr. ROBINSON: It's a bad run, and it's not quite over. You know, but what's
the context? The context this time is that an African-American is right now
the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination. So, in that
sense, there has been progress. But it looks like it could be ugly for a
little while.
MATTHEWS: All right, let me ask you, Andrea, the tough question. Did the
Clinton people, the thinkers in that campaign, do they think or voice or in
any way evidence the fact they think there might be a plus in this? In terms
of their argument, which has been pretty relentless, `This fellow, Barack
Obama, is not electable in November.'
Ms. ANDREA MITCHELL (NBC Political Correspondent): They deny that. They say
that that goes against everything that they've ever stood for. But their
critics, and some of them are in the Obama campaign, suggest that these things
have been insidious in the way they have filtered into the debate. And...
MATTHEWS: Rolling the dice.
Ms. MITCHELL: Yeah. And no, I do not think that they were responsible for
Gerry Ferraro and what she said, and the fact that it was so abhorrent to a
lot of people.
MATTHEWS: Did it take them too long, do you think, in the public light, to
rein her in? In fact, the only way they reined her in is basically, she
divorced herself from the campaign.
Ms. MITCHELL: Well, in fact, a lot of people are criticizing Hillary Clinton
for not being more aggressive in saying this is not the kind of language or
thought that should be part of this campaign. That `I really reject it.' Much
stronger than she actually did.
MATTHEWS: And now, to that very aggressive, angry speech by the--by the
pastor, pastor Jeremiah Wright, who married Michelle and Barack Obama, who
christened their kids, a very close relationship with him. That very
strong-minded speech there. Basically almost--he made the point. But what do
you make of the past tapes that have been coming out about him?
Mr. RICHARD STENGEL (Time Managing Editor): Well, it's interesting. In a
general way, Barack has been so successful as positioning himself as this
post-racial candidate, this post-identity politics candidate that we're
shocked and surprised when he turns out to be a black man, and that he
actually has relationships with people that go back into his past. That has
been what has been so pernicious in a way about the Gerry Ferraro comment.
It's like saying Secretariat wouldn't have won the Kentucky Derby if he wasn't
a horse. Well, of course Barack is--Barack is who he is, and he's been
successful be--for who he is, because he is a black man who has triumphed over
these racial politics. And the Clinton folks are trying to bring him back
down to earth by reminding people and saying, `He's just a black man after
all.'
MATTHEWS: For a while there, Gene--and we've all talked about this--was the
Barack candidacy based on him being black enough, meaning was he really from
the community, or his he some sort of guy who grew up with a white mother, who
was somehow apart from the community. And then when whites began to vote for
Barack Obama, a lot of black people said, `well, wait, this guy could win.'
Now when whites see 90 percent of the blacks voting for him in Mississippi, is
there another turn in this race that's not so pretty to watch, where whites
say, `wait a minute, he's a solidarity candidate'?
Ms. MICHELLE COTTLE (Senior Editor, New Republic): Well, I think certainly
that is what's happening. And whether or not you think that there was any
intentional race-baiting that went on with, like, Bill Clinton's comments
around South Carolina time, anything that turns Barack Obama into a black
candidate will automatically have whites a little bit nervous about this,
because traditionally this has been kind of a really divisive point.
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Ms. COTTLE: And, you know, his entire spiel is that he is a uniter, he is
above all of the usual partisan and political and ethnic and identity politics
divisions that Democrats in particular have been susceptible to. You know,
identity politics has been when something--a burden that they have dealt with.
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Mr. ROBINSON: But you...
Ms. COTTLE: So anything that affects that is going to hurt him.
Mr. ROBINSON: But, you know, if there's some white people who won't vote for
Obama because a lot of black people are voting for him...
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Mr. ROBINSON: ...there's not much he can do about that. And what he--what
he...
MATTHEWS: I know. I don't know what he...
Mr. ROBINSON: ...can do, I think, or the only thing he can do is appeal to
those voters on other grounds. On, you know, economic grounds, on opposition
to the war, on issues that don't have that racial content. But he is who he
is and is and, you know, he's getting the support he's getting, so...
Mr. STENGEL: What I...
MATTHEWS: So shift...
Mr. STENGEL: Yeah.
MATTHEWS: Shift the focus from ethnicity as fast as he can to what?
Mr. ROBINSON: Well, to the economy...
Ms. COTTLE: To economics, yeah.
Mr. ROBINSON: To the--and to the war, which I--which is...
MATTHEWS: OK.
Mr. ROBINSON: ...not dead as an issue.
Ms. MITCHELL: Well...
Mr. STENGEL: But he--the one counterintuitive thing, though, is he's done
better among white voters in all-white enclaves than white voters who live in
diverse places.
Ms. MITCHELL: But that was...
Mr. STENGEL: In places like Wyoming, he's doing well with...
MATTHEWS: That's not surprising, though. Where there isn't any kind of, you
know, turf arguments going on, changing neighborhoods, the usual kind of
things that causes strife.
Ms. COTTLE: And he's done well in...
Mr. STENGEL: No, but we like to think that diversity actually melds the
races rather than drives them apart.
Ms. MITCHELL: I think he's got to talk about the economy.
MATTHEWS: OK. When I talked to him the other night on MSNBC, this is what
Barack Obama said. He was confident about his economic appeal to people.
Sen. OBAMA: (From "Hardball," Tuesday) What this campaign has been about is
to try to restore that sense that Washington is fighting for the working
family and is actually trying to get some things done, and I've got a track
record of doing that over 20 years.
MATTHEWS: Well, we have a new poll from NBC that's cautionary along these
lines. Among Democrats making under 50,000 a year, which is most people,
Hillary gets 49 percent, but Obama gets only 37 percent. Rick, that's his
problem. You got to get the base of the Democratic party economically.
Mr. STENGEL: He does have to get them, and I think he has a great message.
I mean, being a black man growing up in Chicago, growing up in other places, I
mean, he faced economic iniquities. He's faced difficulties that Mrs.
Clinton never faced. I think he's got to harp on that, he's think--he's got
to talk to Joe Six-Pack and basically saying, `I empathize with you, I feel
for you. The Iraq war is cutting things out for you, and we need to remedy
it.'
MATTHEWS: We put it to The Matthews Meter, 12 of our regulars. If Hillary
Clinton is the nominee, will African-Americans vote for her in November,
assuming Obama's not on the ticket with her? Seven say no, African-Americans
will be reluctant to vote for Hillary in the general, five say they will.
Then we asked the meter, if Obama is the nominee--and he's leading right
now--will middle class whites vote for him? Eleven-to-one, the meter says
yes, the whites will support him. Andrea...
Ms. MITCHELL: Yes.
MATTHEWS: You voted that way.
Ms. MITCHELL: I did vote that way, because I think that the real risk that
the Democratic Party has is that the African-American new voters, many of
them, and the young voters who are now coming out to rally around, following
the leadership of this man, who is such a different kind of politician, will
be so turned off if they feel that the nomination is being stolen by someone
who's ahead in delegates, and potentially ahead in popular vote when this is
all over as well. And that it will be easier to bring women back to the
Democratic Party than it will be to bring blacks.
Mr. ROBINSON: Yeah, I generally agree. It is not a trivial thing. I don't
think it'll be a trivial thing to bring Hillary Clinton's voters back
enthusiastically.
MATTHEWS: Older women.
Mr. ROBINSON: Into--right, right--who, you know, who have--who are, as are
many African-Americans, emotionally invested in their candidate, understand
fully the historic nature of the candidacy and will be disappointed if she
doesn't win. And so--you know, it's not a trivial thing. But I--but on the
basic point, I think that's easier, potentially, than bringing in the new
Obama voters, who I think will be disillusioned, especially if he goes to the
convention with more pledged delegates, as he's likely to do.
MATTHEWS: One thing it's done, it's driven up registration in Pennsylvania
among Democrats. There are a lot more potential Democrats next November, even
through all this Sturm und Drang. Let me ask you, this fight over race, over
ethnicity, if you will, is this going to hurt Barack's chances among the
superdelegates? Will they be less likely to see him as a winner?
Ms. COTTLE: Well, that's always been the Clinton argument, is that this is
too divisive. And they're going to be...
MATTHEWS: Will it work?
Ms. COTTLE: They're going to be very nervous looking at states like Ohio and
Pennsylvania, where he's had a hard time.
MATTHEWS: She's saying it'll have an impact.
Mr. ROBINSON: It'll have some impact. I don't think--you know, she's got to
win the popular vote, I think, in the--all the primaries, all the caucuses.
MATTHEWS: We're getting to that BIG QUESTION at the end of the show.
Ms. MITCHELL: No, in fact...
MATTHEWS: That is the diamond cat in question here.
MITCHELL: The superdelegates are members of Congress. They are elected
officials. And what they're seeing, at least in the polling that they look
at, is that Obama would help the people behind, he'd have better coattails.
MATTHEWS: He would be a better...
Mr. ROBINSON: Right.
MITCHELL: For local races in the...
MATTHEWS: Isn't that fascinating?
Mr. ROBINSON: Uh-huh.
Mr. STENGEL: And if it's...
MATTHEWS: He'll bring in a big vote for the...
Ms. MITCHELL: Particularly out West.
Mr. STENGEL: And if this stays this close, then they won't be necessarily
beholden to where the popular vote was in their state, and they can say,
`Look, I was elected to make a decision, and my decision is based on who I
think can win best in November.'
MATTHEWS: Before we break, Eliot Spitzer's resignation as New York's governor
this week gave us a fresh example of that old political artform, the art of
the apology. Spitzer admitted only to private failings, but his apology was
genuinely contrite.
Governor ELIOT SPITZER: (Wednesday) I am deeply sorry that I did not live up
to what was expected of me. To every New Yorker and to all those who believed
in what I tried to stand for, I sincerely apologize.
MATTHEWS: Spitzer took a far different path than Idaho Senator Larry Craig,
who didn't apologize for his behavior in that men's room last summer. He
apologized for pleading guilty.
Senator LARRY CRAIG: (August 28, 2007) I did nothing wrong at the Minneapolis
airport. I did nothing wrong, and I regret the decision to plead guilty.
MATTHEWS: Then of course there's Bill Clinton, who was finally forced to
admit his involvement with Monica Lewinsky. While he did apologize, he also
sounded a note of defiance.
President BILL CLINTON: (August 17, 1998) Indeed I did have a relationship
with Miss Lewinsky that was not appropriate. In fact, it was wrong. It
constituted a critical lapse in judgment and a personal failure on my part for
which I am solely and completely responsible. It's nobody's business but
ours. Even presidents have private lives.
MATTHEWS: President Clinton was impeached by the House for perjury and
obstruction of justice, then acquitted by the Senate. In "Saturday Night
Live" satire back then, we see Clinton taunting the Republicans who tried and
failed to take him out. Here's the great Darrell Hammond.
Mr. DARRELL HAMMOND: (As Bill Clinton, from "Saturday Night Live") I am
bulletproof. Next time, you best bring Kryptonite.
MATTHEWS: When we come back, why did these politicians risk their careers for
sex? Why do men in the public eye think the risks are worth it with the
stakes so high? Plus scoops and predictions right out of the notebooks of
these top reporters, TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW. Be right back.
(Announcements)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back.
Eliot Spitzer's downfall this week was only the most recent time a politician
took a big risk for sex and got caught. In one of my favorite movies,
"Citizen Kane," Kane was running for governor of New York until this
career-ending headline: "Candidate Kane in Love Nest with `Singer.'" In real
life, Lyndon Johnson and Jack Kennedy both carried on affairs while holding
public office. In those days, reporters didn't tell. But by the time Gary
Hart put Donna Rice on his knee in broad daylight, the press not only wasn't
keeping it quiet, the press was in the hunt. And of course there's Bill
Clinton, who took huge risks as Arkansas governor and as president. And now
Eliot Spitzer, a crusading public official who risked and lost it all over sex
with prostitutes.
Rick, I hand you the hot potato of the week. Why?
Mr. STENGEL: I'll defuse it. We have a story in the magazine this week
about the chemistry of risk. In the '90s, an Israeli biochemist discovered
what was called the kind of risk gene. And the idea is that the same thing
that makes a guy charge up the hill or run for governor or run for attorney
general is the same thing that makes him take the risk on the other end, like
Eliot Spitzer did in his private life. It's, you know, one size fits all in
the sense that that same urge makes you achieve and makes you do this other
thing as well.
MATTHEWS: So two for the price of one. If you like the guy to be great and
heroic and adventurous, you're going to get this, too.
Ms. COTTLE: And also...
Mr. STENGEL: That's the danger. That's the danger.
Ms. COTTLE: Also, though, I have actually, embarrassingly enough, did a
story about why Washington politicians cheat a couple years ago, and you find
that it's--the urge to be the alpha male transcends all categories. But also,
what's...
MATTHEWS: What's an alpha male, for the uninformed?
Ms. COTTLE: Well, you know, you have to--you have to be in control, you
know, the leader of the pack, you know. If you're the king lion of the pride
or whatever.
MATTHEWS: What I was--the lion of the pride. In other words, in other forms
of life, the big lion gets the females.
Ms. COTTLE: You get the prize. You get to--you get to...
MATTHEWS: The prize, as they call it. Yeah.
Ms. COTTLE: Yeah. There you go.
Ms. MITCHELL: But this kind of behavior...
MATTHEWS: And that's the thing that anthropologists...
Ms. COTTLE: But then it feeds on itself once you're...
MATTHEWS: ...believe, that men who succeed and get high status, and
throughout history, I've had this sort of bene that comes with the victory.
Ms. MITCHELL: Not all men. Only those who I think are pathological, who
have a real problem. Look, I have to just disagree with one comment earlier.
I don't think that Eliot Spitzer was contrite. He didn't really apologize.
He didn't deal with the broad extent of what he has done. And in fact, the
investigation continues into the way he was moving money around and whether or
not investigators come up with anything more as to whether campaign money was
used.
Mr. ROBINSON: You know...
Ms. MITCHELL: But this kind of behavior, this is leading a double life.
This is a man who had legislation to tighten the laws on prostitution...
MATTHEWS: Right, OK.
Ms. MITCHELL: And on the johns!
MATTHEWS: Which brings me to the question. They always said that pickpockets
would go to the hangings of pickpockets...
Mr. ROBINSON: Yeah.
MATTHEWS: ...and be picking pockets while people were being hanged for
picking pockets.
Mr. ROBINSON: Exactly.
MATTHEWS: Bob Livingston, Newt Gingrich, all involved with affairs,
apparently, at the time that they were trying, basically, Bill Clinton for his
situation.
Ms. MITCHELL: It's hypocrisy.
Mr. ROBINSON: Yeah, and one thing I think is just pure bologna is the--is
the line, you know, it was a cry for help. He wanted--he wanted to be caught.
MATTHEWS: Now, how about we're all guilty? That's another favorite.
Mr. ROBINSON: He thought he would never get caught. He never--you know, he
thought he was invulnerable, I think.
MATTHEWS: Why do you go to one of the most trafficked...
Mr. ROBINSON: Because he's a special...
MATTHEWS: ...hotels in Washington, the Mayflower, if you want to do something
secret?
Ms. COTTLE: Well...
MATTHEWS: I mean, you're bound to bump into someone in the hallway.
Ms. COTTLE: That's the--that's the other element of this.
Mr. ROBINSON: Right.
Ms. COTTLE: When you get to a certain status, you then begin to think the
rules don't apply to you. Everybody's always constantly telling you that you
are God, and you start to believe your own press.
Ms. MITCHELL: But...
Ms. COTTLE: And you think, `It's never going to happen to me.'
Ms. MITCHELL: This is a man who was the attorney general. He knows all
about wire transfers and how these banking transactions are pursued by
investigators, he knows all about the Mann Act, and going across state lines.
Mr. STENGEL: But I just don't want you...
Ms. MITCHELL: He is...
Mr. STENGEL: ...throwing the baby out with the bathwater, in the sense that
the guy did a lot of good as attorney general. He did a lot of good as
governor. He brought a focus on Wall Street.
Ms. MITCHELL: I...
Mr. STENGEL: I mean, let's--we can't say that the guy's nefarious in every
aspect of his life.
Ms. MITCHELL: I don't know, I've got to tell you. When someone like John
Whitehead writes an op-ed in The Wall Street Journal and then gets a
threatening letter from Eliot Spitzer, he was so abusive to people, and the
indictments have not--have not followed.
MATTHEWS: I'll be right back with scoops and predictions right out of the
notebooks of these top reporters. TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW. Be right
back.
(Announcements)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back.
Michelle, TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW.
Ms. COTTLE: All right. I have to say that what I've been disappointed at
has been the ugly successes of some of the racialization of this race we've
been talking about. Just in the last couple weeks or so, a lot more e-mail
and a lot more responses to stuff that I write about--the Obamas, Barack and
Michelle--has been coming in, and it has a kind of crazy racist flavor to it
that, if that's what's going on with this particular group of, you know,
nutters, I think the broader picture is probably also equally bad.
MATTHEWS: I think I hear the same.
Gene?
Mr. ROBINSON: We haven't talked all that much about the war and terrorism in
this campaign. I think in April, that's going to change. You know that
violence is increasing in Iraq. It really seems to be getting a lot worse.
Also in April, there's going to be a new book out about the Bin Laden family
by Steve Coll, who wrote the book about Afghanistan. These--so these old
terrors are going to be back in the news.
MATTHEWS: So it's back in the forefront of our politics, too?
Mr. ROBINSON: Yeah.
MATTHEWS: Andrea?
Ms. MITCHELL: This week, the Americans, the State Department presented new
proposals to North Korea in Geneva to try to break the impasse and try to at
least have one foreign policy success, and there's some suspicion that the
North Koreans are just going to wait out the clock for a new administration.
But if there is going to be a deal, it'll be in the next couple of weeks, or
two months.
MATTHEWS: Richard Stengel?
Mr. STENGEL: John Edwards. Senator John Edwards--remember him?--who's been
conspicuously silent since he dropped out of the race, will endorse a
Democratic candidate probably before North Carolina, certainly before North
Carolina, possible before Pennsylvania. And our own Mark Halpern on the page
says it's going to be Senator Hillary Clinton.
MATTHEWS: OK. I'll be back with this week's BIG QUESTION. In the end, if
Hillary edges Barack in the total votes cast in the primaries and caucuses,
which is possible, would superdelegates give her the nomination, even if she
can't catch Barack in elected delegates? Be right back.
(Announcements)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back.
This week's BIG QUESTION: Michigan and Florida could somehow end up as part
of the Democratic totals, and Pennsylvania plus seven other primaries are
ahead. In the end, after all is counted, if Hillary edges Obama in the total
popular vote, even though he'll keep his majority of elected delegates, would
superdelegates give the nomination to Hillary? Michelle:
Ms. COTTLE: I guarantee you, if this is the case, you will find every member
of team Hillary out there fighting for exactly that. They...
MATTHEWS: Will it work?
Ms. COTTLE: I--you know, if they can make the claim that for some reason
Barack's unelectable in, like, states like Iowa and--Ohio and Pennsylvania,
sure.
MATTHEWS: Will the popular vote carry her?
Mr. ROBINSON: I doubt it will, but this is the nightmare scenario for the
Democratic Party.
MATTHEWS: OK, one...
Ms. MITCHELL: I think very unlikely. Not impossible if they make the case,
if there are other extenuating circumstances. But I think very unlikely.
MATTHEWS: So still delegates count.
Ms. MITCHELL: I think.
Mr. STENGEL: It's another talking point for them for her to say why she's
more electable than Barack, and, you know what, at the end of the day, the
rules are all off. The delegates can vote for whoever they want.
MATTHEWS: Thanks to a great roundtable: Michelle Cottle, Gene Robinson,
Andrea Mitchell and Rick Stengel.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
That's the show. Thanks for watching. To catch a webcast of our show go to
thechrismatthewsshow.com. Happy St. Patrick's Day, everybody, and see you
next week.
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