Announcer: This is THE CHRIS MATTHEWS SHOW. Today...
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
Falling in love again. A brand new poll has Barack likeable and Hillary, not
so much. Why do we Americans want to fall for our presidents? But with so
much in the balance, will 2008 be the year we choose steak over sizzle?
Tuesdays with Rudy. Republicans say they're ready to hit the road with Rudy. They like him the most of his GOP rivals, but will they stick with him to the finish?
And finally, God couple. Will the thrice-wed mayor stick with his new
disciple, the gay-hating Armageddon man? Will this marriage last?
Hi, I'm Chris Matthews. Welcome to the show.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Interview: BBC's Katty Kay; HDNet's Dan Rather, "All Things
Considered"'s Michele Norris and Newsweek's Howard Fineman on why
Americans want to love their president; whether Rudy Giuliani has
staying power as the Republican front-runner, and why Pat
Robertson chose to back him; Tell Me Something I Don't Know; The
Big Question
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
Katty Kay covers Washington for the British Broadcasting Corporation. Dan
Rather is global correspondent for HDNet. Michele Norris hosts "All Things
Considered" on NPR. And Howard Fineman is senior Washington correspondent for Newsweek.
First up, we're in the mood for love. Time and again we go for the candidate
we like, the candidate we connect with personally. Nervous Richard Nixon was no match for debonair Jack Kennedy back in '60. Twenty years later
dead-serious Jimmy Carter couldn't compete with Hollywood's Ronald Reagan. And in 2000, Al Gore was well on his way to becoming president until those debates, when he crossed the line into weird.
(Begin excerpt from October 17, 2000)
President GEORGE W. BUSH: Just tell me what's your philosophy and what's
your position on issues, but can he get things done? And I believe I can.
Offscreen Voice: All right.
Mr. AL GORE: What about the Dingell-Norwood bill?
(End of excerpt)
MATTHEWS: Yeah. Of course, four years after that, John Kerry had the same problem. And just look at this contrast between the people skills of George W. Bush and those of the senator from Massachusetts.
(Begin excerpts of file footage)
Pres. BUSH: It's good to meet you all, thanks. What an honor to say hello
to everybody. There are three sisters, four sisters.
Unidentified Man #1: Four sisters.
Unidentified Woman #1: Four sisters and a brother.
Pres. BUSH: And one little dude.
Woman: And one brother.
Pres. BUSH: It's good to meet you all.
Mr. JOHN KERRY: Go to johnkerry.com...
Unidentified Woman #2: I will.
Mr. KERRY: ...and you'll see my economic plan, cut the deficit in half,
protect the middle class, grow jobs, tax incentive for manufacturing.
(End of excerpts)
TEXT:
Hillary Easygoing
and Likeable
34%
Barack Easygoing
and Likeable
62%
Experienced Enough
to be President
Hillary 51%
Barack 30%
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll November 7
MATTHEWS: And I know it's not fair. Anyway, these days Hillary, the
Democratic front-runner, could have the same problem. In a new NBC poll,
voters ranked being easy-going and likeable as Hillary Clinton's weakest
quality. By dramatic contrast, being likeable is Barack Obama's strongest
trait. Look at that. When it comes to experience, the rankings are flipped,
with the majority saying that Hillary has the experience, and less than a
third saying Barack does.
Dan, here we are again, the American people picking Miss Congeniality as they pick president of the United States. Are we going to go with our hearts
again?
Mr. DAN RATHER (HDNet Global Correspondent): Yes. The opposite of baseball, Leo Durocher, who said nice guys finish last. There are exceptions. Richard Nixon over Hubert Humphrey in 1968, but basically in politics the perception of being a nice person carries a--will beat experience almost every time.
MATTHEWS: Let's talk about the right thing happening right now. Barack Obama has held back. He's been a gentleman throughout. Everybody like me is saying, `Throw a punch.' He says, `No, I'm going to be a gentleman.' And all the polling show that's working. He's very liked. Can he get a--can he pass Hillary in Iowa, beat her in New Hampshire where he's moving up in the polls, by continuing to be so obviously the likeable guy?
Mr. RATHER: Can he do it? Yes. Will he do it? We'll see. Without Edwards
in the race, I would like his chances better.
MATTHEWS: He splits the vote.
Mr. RATHER: He splits the vote.
MATTHEWS: Let me go to Michele. The same question. Women--I know this is a--we're going to be doing this till doomsday in this election...
Ms. MICHELE NORRIS (NPR Host, "All Things Considered"): (Unintelligible).
MATTHEWS: ...women and men going to be part of this issue. Women,
overwhelmingly with Hillary, is the gender unity, the sisterhood, if you will,
more powerful than `who do you want to hang out with' question?
Ms. NORRIS: The sister is powerful. But I think, Chris, the opening tape
that we saw is really telling, because, you know, for people who don't obsess over elections and everything that happens in the campaign as we do, the images that you saw are really the images that the public is left with. Barack Obama is smiling, that 100-watt smile, and that's what people have come to associate with him. Hillary Clinton so often is seen on the
defensive--tight expression, not smiling, finger wagging, and that has left a
sort of deep impression among people, and I think that goes to that likability question.
Dan, when you talk about perception. That's what people really see.
MATTHEWS: OK. Tough question to you, as I did to Dan, what's going to work?
Ms. NORRIS: If you put the same question to Dan, is Obama sort of laying
back instead of going on the offensive or defensive right away, if you talk to people in his camp, they're not really worried about that. They say that, for right now, they're pacing themselves, that this is a marathon, so it's not
important. And you know, one of the other things, is when you talk to voters and they talk about Obama being a fresh face, one of the things they talk about is someone who's not always on the attack, and, as a black candidate, I think that is important because if you listen to the code and people are saying his politics are not fueled by anger or retribution, I think we all know exactly what people saying.
MATTHEWS: You are so smart. I think--I mean, I'm white guy, obviously, but I think that a lot of white voters do not want to see an angry face, a black face, coming at them politically because they feel guilty maybe, right?
Ms. KATTY KAY (BBC Washington Correspondent): But there's dog whistle
politics for a woman here, too, aren't there?
Ms. NORRIS: Mm-hmm.
Ms. KAY: Because when people start saying, `Oh, Hillary's tough,' are they
actually just saying that she's tough compared to other women, and I--women sometimes have to be tougher to get to the position that Hillary's in. I mean, it's no...
MATTHEWS: But likeable. Is she likeable?
Ms. KAY: Well, actually, what--the polls suggest that her toughness, her
outspokenness, people do seem to like those qualities in her. They want a
woman who they feel, when it comes to pushing the nuclear button, would
actually be strong enough to do it, and we've seen this in American politics
before. I mean, look at somebody like Margaret Thatcher. Was she
particularly likeable? No, she was tough.
MATTHEWS: She was called "the Iron lady."
Ms. KAY: She was called--yeah, and it was no coincidence. I do think
there's a complicated issue, as there so often are, with gender issues.
MATTHEWS: I'm so complicated. We're not used to this complication. Howard, this question, I want to get back to you as the political guy here--don't get into gender politics too much--we have two people running at the front right now for this Democratic nomination which is worth so much because everybody says this is going to be a change election. Is Obama playing it smart by being very much the debonair, likeable guy even if it's at the cost of engaging a tough debate here?
Mr. HOWARD FINEMAN (Newsweek Senior Washington Correspondent): Yes, he's playing it very smart, because the dynamics of the entire race, including the Republican race, is to focus on Hillary. So far Hillary has been the issue. All the Republicans attacking her, saying `I'm the best to beat Hillary.' Meanwhile other Democrats now focusing on her. Because of that overall dynamic, Obama can hang back. And I disagree with Dan about the Edwards thing. I think it's possible, if Obama plays it correctly, it's good for him that Edwards is in the race because Edwards--to distinguish himself, John Edwards is, he's the one being the prosecutor against Hillary. I've seen it happen before in three-way races or four-way races...
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Mr. FINEMAN: ...the attacker of the front-runner doesn't benefit, somebody
else does. And that's the game that Obama is playing here.
Ms. KAY: Particularly in a state like Iowa.
MATTHEWS: Dan, let me get you to respond to that. What do you think of that theory?
Mr. RATHER: I agree with that, but the hippopotamus in the bathtub here is
that Obama is of African-American extraction...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. RATHER: ...and I think he would be far ahead in the race if not for
Democrats asking themselves, `Can we win with this guy?'
Mr. FINEMAN: Yeah.
Mr. RATHER: The plus for him is he's a nice guy. I agree. He's played it
very well. I agree with your overall analysis about, generally speaking, the
attacker of the front-runner doesn't benefit the other. But with Obama, it's
race. Nobody wants to say something...
MATTHEWS: But you know what, I think it...
Mr. FINEMAN: I don't think it's race.
Ms. NORRIS: It's...(unintelligible).
Mr. FINEMAN: It's not race. It's lack of experience.
Ms. KAY: Yeah, I think so.
Ms. NORRIS: It is race. It's always...
MATTHEWS: You think it is?
Ms. NORRIS: ...race in America. And when it really gets down to it, when
you get to South Carolina...
MATTHEWS: I think we can only think of one thing at a time, and people who think they got a problem with Hillary can't think about race. For the first time in American history, people have got race off their mind. The
hippopotamus in the bathtub is Hillary.
Ms. KAY: Yeah I think gender...
TEXT:
Would rather Travel with Across U.S.
Giuliani 35%
Thompson 21%
McCain 14%
ABC News/Washington Post Poll
September 4
MATTHEWS: Anyway, let's talk about the Republicans. Rudy was just--now talk about an earthshaking discovery here. The most likeable guy around in the Republican Party, a new ABC poll shows the Republicans would rather sit next to Rudy in a car ride all across America than any of his rivals, and the question is, why is he so popular? Maybe it has to do with scenes like this one when Rudy helped a fan with a finicky camera.
(Begin excerpt of videotape)
Mr. RUDY GIULIANI: Hold on a second, one second. Hold on. Let's just see
if it works.
Unidentified Woman #3: Oh, wow.
Unidentified Woman #4: Don't get me.
Mr. GIULIANI: Memory fault. Memory fault.
Woman #5: It's not my camera.
Mr. GIULIANI: You know what we have to do? We've got to get rid of
batteries depleted. Memory fault. Batteries depleted. That's why it wasn't
working.
Woman #4: I don't...
Woman #3: I was the one who...
Mr. GIULIANI: We invested too much time not to make this work.
Woman #4: I used one of them BlackBerrys. It worked.
Mr. GIULIANI: All right.
Woman #3: All right! Thank you.
(End of excerpt)
MATTHEWS: Howard, is this guy Mr. Likeable or what?
Mr. FINEMAN: Well, you know what? I met that guy in New York when I was
following him around as mayor.
MATTHEWS: Mm.
Mr. FINEMAN: He used to drive around in his white Suburban. He was like
Batman, you know, `I'm here to save the day here and there.' That's New York and it's a New York that's a new New York to the rest of the country.
Post-9/11 New York, post Jerry Seinfeld New York, a New York that is not
threatening to people. He embodies that. Also, if you can survive the New
York media, you can survive anywhere. He's ridden it for years, up and down and back and up again.
Ms. KAY: Well, here's what's remarkable about him. Here's a candidate who's basically selling fear. That's his whole message.
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Ms. KAY: Is that there's going to be another attack on the United States.
He's selling fear and he manages to do it with a smile. Sometimes it works
like there, but sometimes it doesn't, like when he takes the call from his
wife...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. KAY: ...and that doesn't go down so well.
MATTHEWS: Yeah. Compare his smile to Dick Cheney's. Anyway, we put it to The Matthews Meter, 12 of our regular panelists, will 2008 be the year that effectiveness trumps likability? Hillary should like the results here, eight to four, our meter says yes. This time it may not be about likability. We also asked the meter who's more likeable--here's a tough one--Hillary or Rudy Giuliani? It's split, six for Hillary six for Rudy. We have a split right
here. Katty, you voted for her...
Ms. KAY: It's a...
MATTHEWS: Howard voted for him. Let's have it out here.
Ms. KAY: I think it's a very tough question, but I do think there is
something about Rudy Giuliani that makes people, certainly around the rest of the world, makes people extremely nervous. There is a real toughness there, and I'm just not quite sure I trust that smile and that fixing the camera.
Mr. RATHER: Well, I...
Ms. KAY: I think behind that is a man of steel who could lead America in a
very wrong direction because he is that tough.
Mr. FINEMAN: (Unintelligible).
Mr. RATHER: There's an old country music song that says, `I haven't lived
forever, but I've lived long enough to learn to be tender and learn to be
tough.' And I think that Rudolph Giuliani, what's working for him is that he
somehow conveys the idea, `Yes, I've lived long enough to be tough and you need a president who's tough. But folks, don't forget I have a tender side.' And whatever people in New York who remember him as a mayor who was being run out of town before 9/11 effectively...
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Mr. RATHER: ...think about him in New York, the way he plays in the country is a guy that has the common touch, who's tender.
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Mr. RATHER: I know that Giuliani haters will say, `What are you talking
about?' This is the way he plays in the country and it's working for him.
He's tough. He's tough as nails. This is perception. But he also knows how
to be tender, how to relate to people, and I wouldn't underestimate for one
second.
MATTHEWS: Wow. Dan, here, you're a--you're a New Yorker for many years now. It's amazing to hear you say that. Anyway, that's one of the things, by the way, this intangible thing is one of the things that I wrote about in my new book, which is out there right now: "Life's a Campaign." I'm telling you. I spent years trying to figure this thing out. I'm very proud to have gotten into this personal stuff.
Anyway, before we go to break, catch this. Rudy Giuliani was all smiles this
week when he got the endorsement of televangelist Pat Robertson. Rudy called it--I love these words--`an honor from a person of great, well-deserved repute.' But those accolades may come as a shock to those who've watched America's mayor build an entire campaign on 9/11. After all, Robertson was the one who wholeheartedly agreed with the Reverend Jerry Falwell when he declared on Robertson's own show that al-Qaeda terrorists weren't the only ones behind the attacks of 9/11.
(Begin excerpt of September 13, 2001)
Reverend JERRY FALWELL: I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alterative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way--all of them, who tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say `you helped this happen.'
Mr. PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur.
(End of excerpt)
MATTHEWS: Well, does Rudy concur? Does he believe that he saved Sodom and Gomorrah from God? I mean, this is a weird situation here.
Mr. RATHER: Well, politics is weird and that old saying `politics makes
strange bedfellows' never comes to mind more than you see that particular
thing. But we know this about Pat Robertson. The main thing--and Republicans share this right across the board--they want to win, and whatever it takes to win. And Robertson's decided Giuliani can beat Hillary, he can win, and that's what this is all about.
MATTHEWS: Well, this is--this is about--we'll come back and talk to Katty and everyone else about this strange partnership between Rudy and Pat Robertson. Can this cohabitation last politically? Will this new love outlive the primaries? Plus scoops and predictions right out of the notebooks of these top reporters. TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW. Be right back.
(Announcements)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back. Rudy Giuliani got a big boost to his conservative credentials this week, winning the endorsement of televangelist Pat Robertson. Robertson confesses differences on some issues, but said he and Rudy see eye to eye on one big one: who should sit on the Supreme Court and other courts across the country. Let's listen:
Mr. ROBERTSON: (Wednesday) He understands the need for a conservative
judiciary, and with the help of the distinguished Ted Olson, who's here today, and other members of his team, has assured the American people that his choices for judicial appointments will be men and women who share the judicial philosophy of John Roberts and Antonin Scalia.
MATTHEWS: Well, that type of talk works well among Republicans, especially the Christian conservatives who want Roe v. Wade overturned. Michele?
Ms. NORRIS: For many of those voters, this is a bright line issue. This is
a line they will not cross, and it's important to remember that a lot of these
evangelical Christians were raised in households that were not Republican,
they were Democratic households, and they've crossed--they've crossed over now into the Republican camp. They are more tied to the issue than they are to the party, and so if they're looking at voting for a candidate who has crossed the line, I think that this will...(unintelligible)...
MATTHEWS: How do they respond when they know--they're all registered to vote, because they've voted for years now, right? How do they use their vote, come Election Day, when they see Hillary two points ahead in the general election after the debates. Do they sit home and say, `God says stay at home' or do they say, `God says, get out there and do something to stop this'?
Ms. NORRIS: It's not clear. They may stay at home. You know, there's also
talk about the possibility of a third-party candidate. I mean, it's just talk
right now, but...
MATTHEWS: Yeah, sure. Possible. But even then you have to look at the odds on the other person winning.
Ms. NORRIS: And the thing is, you know what? You know what? It may also...
MATTHEWS: Stopping Hillary may be more important than voting for a third
party.
Ms. NORRIS: It may also depend on--I mean, if you look back at what's
happened in past elections, it wasn't just the abortion issue that was driving
people to the polls, it was also these ballot initiatives...
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Ms. NORRIS: ...so there are other things that could play a role in this.
Ms. KAY: But I think the question is not also do they just go out and vote,
it's how much do they do to lobby their neighbors? Are they making those
phone calls? Are they walking the streets? I've spoken to people down in
South Carolina who say, `Look, if Rudy Giuliani is the nominee, I'm not going to split with the party, I'm not going to go with a third candidate. I don't like his views on social issues, but I'm not going to be as energized as I might be.' On the other hand, you've got some die-hard anti-abortion activists who say, `We are so determined not to have Hillary Clinton in the White House that we would never go the Jim Dobson, who almost split the party, and if Rudy Giuliani is the nominee, we'll back him'...
MATTHEWS: I can just imagine the suburban decision everybody's going to have to make next year. Everybody in the 'burbs, they're going to say, `You know, I want lower taxes, so I'll vote Republican, but then again, I want abortion rights, so I'll vote Democrat. Hillary might be OK, but I don't know, this Rudy Giuliani, I liked him on law and order, he's good on crime and yet, what's he doing with this guy Dobson and what's he doing with Robertson? What's he doing with those guys?'
Mr. FINEMAN: Well, the thing is, if Rudy has played this right, his history
in New York, which is causing him problems now in the primary, and which he's trying to cover with Robertson, can come back to help him. Because subtly and otherwise he's going to be saying, you know, `I'm really that big city guy that you knew from the beginning,' and by the way, Robertson, who's...
MATTHEWS: So how come Hillary gets in trouble for waffling and he can do it?
Mr. FINEMAN: Well, he's going to get in trouble for waffling, too, if he's
the nominee. And don't forget in the test match-ups, including in the NBC
poll, Hillary and Rudy are running neck and neck. It's a very, very close
race.
MATTHEWS: All right. I think we're looking at the end...
Mr. FINEMAN: Close race. Close race.
MATTHEWS: ...of the campaign already. Anyway, we put it to The Matthews
Meter, 12 of our regulars, if Rudy does make it to the general election next
November, will he stick with this pledge he's made to appoint Supreme Court justice like Alito and Scalia. The verdict--this is rare on this
program--unanimous, 12-zip, the meter says Rudy will stick with his pledge if he's president.
Katty, when you're bought, you stay bought? Is that the old rule of politics?
Amazing, he's going to be the tough, strict constructionist judge picker that
he promises to be?
Ms. KAY: I mean, in a way he's quite fortunate. Because he's already got a
conservative Supreme Court that he's inheriting. That's--in a sense I think
that's what he's able to hide behind at the moment. That's what the values
voters are also able to hide behind. They'll be able to say, `We can take
Giuliani as our president because we know we've got a Supreme Court that is already very conservative.'
MATTHEWS: Mm.
Ms. KAY: He's not going to get rid of Alito and Scalia and those people...
MATTHEWS: (Unintelligible). So they've had enough?
Ms. KAY: So I think they feel they've got something that they can bank
already and they can take a gamble with Giuliani because Giuliani's selling
fear of two things. He's selling fear of Osama and fear of Hillary, and
Hillary trumps in this case.
MATTHEWS: Dan, this is not just a woman's question, this pro-choice issue.
Are male voters, do you think, willing to vote for a guy who says, `Yeah,
maybe we should get rid of Roe v. Wade'?
Mr. RATHER: Absolutely. I don't think there's any question about it.
Particularly the hard-core Republican male voters. Yes. And what's working
for Rudolph Giuliani, he has this pass where, at the very least, he waffled on abortion...
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Mr. RATHER: But by saying that he will appoint Supreme Court justices, the
message behind the message is, `We're going to overturn Roe v. Wade. Wink,
wink.'
MATTHEWS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mr. RATHER: That's what it's about.
MATTHEWS: I'll be right back with scoops and predictions right out of the
notebooks of these top reporters. TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW. Be right
back.
(Announcements)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back.
Katty, TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW.
Ms. KAY: Chris, the moment in 2004 when I thought these polls are not right, that the Democrats are saying they thought they'd won, was when they said Virginia, we're up by four points. Well, now polls do the same. Virginia could be the new Ohio. And if we look at the elections, the statewide elections in Virginia last week, it must be giving the Democrats some heart, that this could be a state that they could actually win this time...
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Ms. KAY: ...having thought that they were there in 2004.
MATTHEWS: And if you win Virginia, then you win Pennsylvania, you win
everything--Ohio.
Ms. KAY: And things are changing.
MATTHEWS: Dan:
Mr. RATHER: In Iowa, the fact that they moved the Iowa caucuses up so soon after New Year's, what, within 48 hours, 72 at the most, that means the college and university students may not be back from their vacation. The campaigns are worried about this. They don't talk about it. If they don't
show up, it's a minus for Obama and a plus for Hillary and for Edwards.
MATTHEWS: Wow.
Michele:
Ms. NORRIS: The Huckabee camp was talking about the Christmas strategy, the early Christmas present that they hope to get. They don't have the money to run ads, and they're hoping that no one else will be able to place ads in Christmas because it'll be filled with Best Buy ads and Wal-Mart ads, and they're thinking that they may give them the win that they need in their...(unintelligible)...going into January.
Mr. FINEMAN: There's a lot of trash talking going on in the phone banks in
Iowa. Everybody's trying to be nice in public, but on the phone it's a little
different. Somebody's going to get caught. I don't know which campaign is
going to get caught, but whichever campaign on the Democratic side does get caught, it's going to be a huge story out there.
MATTHEWS: And they don't like that stuff out there.
Mr. FINEMAN: They don't like it in Iowa.
MATTHEWS: But they don't mind taking the calls.
Mr. FINEMAN: No, no.
MATTHEWS: I'll be right back with this week's BIG QUESTION: Will our
government make any real moves to stop global warming after all this talk. Be right back.
(Announcements)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back.
Dan Rather's show on HDNet celebrates its first anniversary this coming
Tuesday with a special about global warming. Here's a piece of it.
(Begin excerpt of HDNet program)
Unidentified Man #2: What we're experiencing now in terms of the warming and the retreat of the Arctic ice cap may have happened and on a number of occasions in the past. The difference that we have now, compared with the relatively recent past, is that, with CO2 levels increasing, maybe the natural cycles aren't going to be given the chance to recover, to return to the colder periods.
Mr. RATHER: I'm not sure I understand. Your concern now is, because of
environmental things created by humans...
Man: Mm-hmm.
Mr. RATHER: ...that perhaps nature will not have an opportunity to recover
as it did in the past?
Man: That's exactly right.
(End of excerpt)
MATTHEWS: Well, Dan, where were you in that picture?
Mr. RATHER: Four hundred twenty miles north of the Arctic circle, fairly
close to the North Pole in the outer reaches of Canada.
MATTHEWS: Well, that brings us to our week's BIG QUESTION: Will our
government make any real moves in the near future to actually stop global
warming, Katty, do something, CO2 emissions, whatever?
Ms. KAY: They're not going to do it, Chris. What strikes me when I go back
to Europe, the cars are a lot smaller than they are here in America. There is almost a God-given right to drive big gas-guzzling cars in the States. I
don't see Congress ever changing that.
MATTHEWS: Congress acting, Dan?
Mr. RATHER: No, Congress doesn't have the guts to do it and therefore it's
not going to happen. Big industry's influence, special interest money
influence. Not going to happen.
MATTHEWS: Thank you. Michele:
Ms. NORRIS: More likely to be much like immigration, won't happen in
Congress, will happen at the state and at the local level.
MATTHEWS: Howard:
Mr. FINEMAN: Electric cars? That means 100 new coal-fired power plants.
That's not going in the right direction, and that's what's on the drawing
boards right now.
MATTHEWS: Anyway, thanks to a great roundtable. Katty Kay, Dan Rather,
Michele Norris, and Howard Fineman.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
That's the show. Thanks for watching. Happy 60th anniversary to "Meet the
Press." See you here next week.
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